The politics of OC spray
(photo taken by Matt Rourke | AP Photo)
I've been watching news coverage of the "counter-culture" protests in St. Paul and I have to give credit to the local cops over there. They did an outstanding job maintaining order. If the anarchists thought they were going ruin the RNC, they must be very disappointed right now.
I was especially impressed with the effectiveness and professionalism of St. Paul's bike cops. I've riden police bikes during large rallies before but my department has never really put them to good use. Maybe I should send these videos to my bosses.
So what happens when you have a very effective police department that is well-trained in crowd control? You get a lot of whining.
I have no sympathy for these activists. Back in my younger police days when I could still pass as a college student, I was assigned to keep an eye on several activist groups in my city that were planning for a major event. I sat in on many protest planning sessions and let me tell you, these people are not the innocent victims they try to portray themselves to be.
There was plenty of talk of committing property damage and disrupting major traffic into and out of the city. Methods of provoking the cops and how to make it appear the most brutal were discussed. People were assigned to operate cameras and get as much video as possible with the intent to edit it later for propoganda purposes.
It disgusts me that these folks have total contempt for this country's government and laws but as soon as they get arrested, they try to twist things around to suit their needs. They love to yell about their rights but have no regard for the rights of anyone they disagree with. If you go to youtube and watch a few videos, you will see that simply being handcuffed is what they consider police brutality. I bet they really got upset over the flashbangs and tear gas then.
Once again, great job St. Paul PD.
28 bits of radio chatter:
WHo knew a bicycle could be so effective as a shield?!
I do have one question, was "well-trained in crown control" an intentional combination of "crowd" and "clown"? If it was, you got a chuckle out of me. If not, then I guess I was laughing at nothing again.
Whoops. Sorry bout the typos.
The ILEAS (Illinois Law Enforcement Alarm System.. Similar to MABAS that the Fire Departments use) was triggered and we sent our group of officers up to assist at the convention for a week..
Not sure how they did I have been off work for a bit..
But I have seen a lot of videos from the 'protest' off of LiveLeak and it looks like there was no peace in their protest! Good work to all of the officers!
Bullies with badges
All those jobless, no-bath-taking spoiled white kids in one place...tsk!
But it looks like the locals did a fantastic job. No small incidents grew into big ones, damage was limited, pre-emptive raids scooped up most of the kiddies' stockpiled weapons, and no one got hurt.
Still, would it be so bad for America if the police stepped in, opened up a few cans of whoop-ass, and gave these brats the spankings that their parents obviously withheld? I'm thinking not, but hey--that's just me.
"They love to yell about their rights but have no regard for the rights of anyone they disagree with."
TRUER words were never spoken.
(now, can I interest you in some capsaicin II pepperballs to go with that air rifle?)
B.G.
I love guys with their fogger units that contaminate other officers.While the pictured officers had gas masks,the average officer isnt going to have one on his/her person.
Foggers are good for the depicted crowd control with the correct protective posture.Stream units best all around choice for patrol.Foam is useless.
As a SPPD officer, I can only say "Thank you" to all that came to assist us. Without everyone's help, we wouldn't have had the staffing to handle things the way we did. Through good police work, preemptive and work during the RNC, it was a very successful event. Yes, the whiners and criers are out in force. Luckily we have as much if not more video that was taken during the convention and it will be a great witness to those who question how we handled things. Numerous warnings, even handed and appropriate use of force and protecting the law abiding folks who wanted to exercise their freedom of speech and protest without destroying property or harming others. I think the protesters and their "legal observers" would be surprised at how many of the citizens of the city would have been more than happy for us to have opened that can of "whoop ass" on the great unwashed. The only folks who support the protesters are the liberal, tree hugging, Birkenstock wearing, save the whales, kumbia singing aging folks who just don't quite seem to have a clue.
You should have done some back story on that photo at the top of your column. It is an interesting one for you to choose to head your column. The camera person who is getting hosed with OC is a journalism student at the rally to do a class project and has displayed press credentials. This minor child was separated from his chaperon in this melee. As you can see by the eye line of the officer, he is the target of the pepper spray.
This minor was detained with the rest of those swept up in the street and kept with the general population while in detention. Even though he cooperated, showed his id as a minor, explained his journalistic endeavor, provided chaperon's contact info, he was still detained and kept for hours then released with no phone call, money, possessions (camera, back pack etc.), miles from where was picked up.
The photographer who took the picture, Matt Rourke, also was taken down after being trapped in a parking lot. http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2008/09/03/3320/ap_photographers_last_pre-arrest_shot_is_a_stunner
The obvious question for me is why choose such a loaded photo to make your point about the professionalism of the police? There are two examples of police misconduct connected to that one photo: The targeting and arrest of the press and the treatment of minors. Both people not protesters. Either you have no respect for the rights of journalists and minors, or you have no clue.
Link to back ground for subject in photo you posted:
http://kykernel.com/2008/09/02/two-students-and-kernel-photo-adviser-arrested-at-rnc/
Actually I picked the picture because it showed SPPD officers doing their job and I thought it was a cool action shot.
I checked out the story you linked to and found this important line:
"The police tried to move the protestors back, Carla Winn said, but when they couldn’t, they started spraying people with pepper spray."
That's good enough for me. The police tried to control the crowd, couldn't verbally so went to OC. That's standard use of force tactics. Sorry if a minor and photographer got swept up but when you are in the middle of a riot things happen. I have been in the middle of similar events and know that there isn't usually time to go around checking ids when the fur is flying.
If the crowd is ordered to the disperse then you need to use some common sense and get the heck out of the way. Otherwise this will happen to you.
'Nuff said.
Oh man listen to you assholes. Judge Jury and Executioners. Just do your fuckin job without all the Blah Blah bullshit. The rules are the rules. You can't bend them but you always do. Then when you get caught all we hear is the whining. Talk about a bunch of well trained CLOWNS...
The only whining I am hearing now is from activists who weren't able to break enough Starbucks windows at the RNC.
Sorry the people you disagree with actually got to have their convention without you interrupting it with a stirring chant of "Whose streets? Our streets!"
Grow up.
You know who else protested? George Washington, Patrick Henry, John Adams, John Hancock, Martin Luther King, Gandhi etc.
You know who tried to prevent them from protesting?
The Redcoats, Establishmentarian rascists, Imperial British invaders.
You know what happened when control forces opened a can of "whoop ass" on the great unwashed?
The Boston Massacre
Not to use extensive hyperbole and compare this protest to those. But desiring political convention goers to have a complete shield from the protestations wrought from their goverance, seems anti-American.
Designing specific protest areas and dispering peaceful crowds marching seems Anti-American
Pepper spraying photographers seems Anti-American
Law Enforcers are supposed to protect the Constitution and the principles of our nation, not the will of the conservative party.
And yes I Back the Blue, but when those claiming to love the law take such glee and mirth from violence, something must be questioned.
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" Plato's Republic
"Who shall watch the watchers"
There is a difference between protesting and destroying property and distrupting the RNC. From what I can see, plenty of people got to express their views during the event. Your right to protest stops when you start assaulting convention goers, break windows, and blocking streets.
Don't try to compare you socialist college kids to the founding fathers. That is just pathetic.
Todd, if your definition of assault is being somewhere where your protests are not out of sight of of mind, then there is too great a disparity for us to see eye to eye.
Yes, property should be protected, but outside of that, the right of people to peacable assemble to protest should be unassailable.
"Don't try to compare you socialist college kids to the founding fathers. That is just pathetic." --- Perhaps you didn't read the part claiming 'not to use extensive hyperbole' in using those examples (i.e. exaggeration).
However, the point remains that a) perspective means the founding fathers would've been viewed very much the same as the protestors you revile and b)they were willing to sacrifice their lives in order to create a society where the government did not inhibit the ability of it's citizens to be heard.
They also would not have retreated from terrorism by inhibiting liberty as the body politic did with the Patriot Act ("Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery" - P. Henry), but that is a topic for another day.
I love how you assume socialist, because they are anti-regressive control of our country through fear
I love how you denigrate college, as though higher education is a bad thing, and passion as though believing in a cause were a fault.
So did you wholeheartedly give yourself over the the Australian Magnate spoonfeeding you your news with his slant, or was it a gradual submission.
JL,
I wish you'd show more pics of some hippies getting their asses kicked by "the man"!
Less Hippies - More Stick-time!
As usual, there's two sides and a middle to every story. The middle here is not that good. There were incidents of unprovoked, unnecessary use of force. For example, an order was given for people to leave a particular area. The moment they began to leave, they were attacked. If they stood still, they were attacked. I don't think the local police did a good job. What they did do was pour a little gasoline on those who in fact were looking for an excuse. My impression from what I saw was a good percentage of officers (say 10-15 %) had the gear, had the toys and wanted badly to use them. NOT IN ALL CASES was this true. Some cases, response was appropriate, but in many, it was unprovoked and simple hooliganism.
I contrast this with Denver where massive show of force was available for any protest and there were a lot of them. They were handled appropriately, including one minor thing where an ass clown getting into a cab had the bright idea for absolutely no reason, to mouth off to a passing flying squad. Whoops. That didn't work out too well for him. But he was not pepper sprayed or beaten. St. Paul cops were pretty much into the the latter.
-BobCov
Looks like a bunch of protesters couldn't get their point across without disobeying the law and got what they deserved. If you can't obey the law, you'll get no mercy from me. Everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it, but nobody has the right to try to force their opinion on anyone else.
I'm IPMBA certified and this is the best example of the training I've ever seen. It's also great to see bike, motorcycle, and mounted officers able to coordinate together in such a way.
It is interesting that most of the police officers that post over the top violent commentary and provide a link to their profile have a military background. I am not sure if the militarization of our police forces stem from this influx of military people or a specific plan from the top.
After some consideration, it seems that all the officers in my family came from a military back ground, yet none showed such glee for the violence that they had to use. As a matter of fact, they were able to do the job with the least amount of violence necessary and with out all the gadgets. Mostly by defusing the situation.
So, I think that the police culture has been infiltrated in the past 30 years by the, violent, repressive and the authoritarian, cultured by a "war on" whatever the flavor of social problem of that moment from the top by political players.
Unfortunately, a small fraction of those in the streets acted out, and that includes people on both sides of the barriers. What makes it unfortunate is that once those with weapons uncork that bottle, everyone suffers; the innocent, the elderly and the infirm, citizens, police and anyone in the street at that time.
My understanding is that a lot of the police prep for this RNC 2008 came from NYC RNC 2004. I wonder how many of the rank and file understand how much the police misconduct will cost NYC? While it is impossible to know since the cases are just now getting to court, I'll give you a hint. The 2003 Peace rally in NYC has so far cost NYC tax payers 2 million dollars for their lawsuit against the City of New York. The activists were illegally arrested on April 7, 2003 while protesting against the Iraq war in front of a military contractor's offices in midtown. The settlement in Kunstler et al v. New York City follows the dismissal in 2003 of all criminal charges brought against these individuals and four costly years of delays by the City. This was just 52 people.
What about the NYC RNC 2004 arrests? So far 400 have been dismissed on direct video evidence alone that showed the arresting officers lied, colluded and fabricated the evidence. So they are looking at 800 illegal arrest lawsuits, which scaled using the 2003 lawsuit result, comes to roughly 30 million dollars.
Do you think that St. Paul can afford that cost, being it is not NYC (which has Wall Street paying into the tax coffers)? I certainly hope all the hundreds of arrests in St. Paul were on the up and up... if they get the charges dropped, the arrest is illegal and lawsuits will ensue.
I am really disappointed by the tone taken by many opinions I read here by those in law enforcement. I would hope you all would clean your own house first.
Why is it that the same punks always refuse to obey lawful orders or otherwise act "peaceably" yet these are the first and the loudest complainers when the good guys finally have to break out the sticks and play "Hippie Hockey"?
The police merely respond to situations that the troublemakers cause. If you ask for an ass-whooping, don't cry when you get one.
I'm sure glad the LEOs here are the ones that get to determine the definition of "peaceable" because from many of the comments posted, it seems that once people have gathered, they are all anarchists without exception hell bent on causing property damage. This oversimplification seems to be all that is needed justify force.
I especially liked the comments regarding the preemptive raids on suspected activists. Because nothing says freedom and democracy like Stasi/KGB style sweeps of persons with differening political opinions. And to think anything else is socialist, and for you socialists to bring up things like the American revolution to juxtapose your actions just makes me want to vomit.
i do not know much about this event or anything but and maybe i should research a bit more on it but from what i have seen i wanted to comment on someone elses comment.....
"All those jobless, no-bath-taking spoiled white kids in one place...tsk!
But it looks like the locals did a fantastic job. No small incidents grew into big ones, damage was limited, pre-emptive raids scooped up most of the kiddies' stockpiled weapons, and no one got hurt.
Still, would it be so bad for America if the police stepped in, opened up a few cans of whoop-ass, and gave these brats the spankings that their parents obviously withheld? I'm thinking not, but hey--that's just me."
i just wanted to say that i am glad that these kids are sticking up for what they want, that is our government and how our siciouty is built on, i do not know what these kids are wanting in this protest but at least they are trying to make something happen, i do understand that things get out of control but the people who were trying to get this going did not have that in mind, they just had the thought that something wasnt right so they were trying to change it! i am glad nothing happened and everything was pretty safe. i dunno what im saying anymore....
Divide and conquer. Keep the peasants distracted arguing about superficial topics while we march forward with our grand agenda.
It seems to be working well.
It's funny how the people who are ready to argue for the protesters are hiding behind a shroud of anonymity. But I have to agree with johnny law here, if people are causing chaos, you should know to get out of the way.
Having looked at a lot of the fallout after this, I'd say there were some problems too.
Most notably was the lack of professionalism displayed towards journalists just out there to do a job. When I'm on a scene, I'm there for one reason only. It's not to "promote" any cause, it's not to get in your way, it's simply to document what is happening.
I wish law enforcement officers could see things from our side of the street. Just leave me alone and let me do my job, that's all I ask.
EMT-I"85" in-training here. While I generally tend to gravitate towards more liberal ways of thought and politics, I think you guys did a great job of keeping the peace. Even if I don't agree with the republicans, I don't want their convention interrupted any more than I'd want my own shindig being disturbed. Those guys should have enough brains to realize that they're not exactly helping their cause by acting like a bunch of chimps.
It's a really simple equation- when a police officer tells you to do something, do it or he's going to make you. If you think that's cruelty, well, you probably had that pepper spray coming anyway.
"When I'm on a scene, I'm there for one reason only. It's not to "promote" any cause, it's not to get in your way, it's simply to document what is happening."
If only he lived in st.paul and was able to read what these "unbiased" journalists were writing. MN is notoriously full of granola fed liberals with lawyers on their speed dial.If only I had a dollar for every drunk jackass who said we were violating his rights...What about the rights of others to safety?
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