Talking to a wall
My town is fairly liberal/progressive/hopelessly naive about things. That means there are a lot of anti-war/anti-police/anti-violence hippie types roaming around. Eventually you are going to have someone chanting about police brutality or police states or some other type of nonsense.
Most officers will just walk away when they start to hear this stuff but I'm a little different. I consider myself somewhat of a debater and I like to have "discussions" with these folks. I listen to Democracy Now on occasion and I sometimes browse Indymedia. I don't follow this stuff because I agree with it. It's more of a professional interest. If you live in a town with a ton of activists, you are eventually going to have to deal with protests and it helps to know the issues.
Gosh those people can be stupid sometimes though. I remember one discussion I had with a young woman a few years back. I don't remember the city but there had been a very high profile and racially charged police shooting that had sparked riots and all the usual protests. Police had attempted to arrest a suspect for misdemeanor warrants when the guy ran. Police chased him into an ally. The suspect started digging into his waistband and the police shot him. Turns out he wasn't armed.
This woman I encountered wanted to know what I thought about the "murder" of this poor unarmed person. I replied that I felt it was tragic but the dead guy shouldn't have run in the first place. Of course this didn't fly and she kept repeating that the police killed him over a misdemeanor.
I pointed out that the bad guy is the one who ran and police were obligated to chase him. She didn't feel that they should have chased him for a misdemeanor.
Me: So police shouldn't chase some if it is only for a misdemeanor warrant?
Her: No. It's not worth it.
Me: So how would people ever get arrested for warrants if they can run without consequences?
Her: Well you would get them eventually.
Me: How? You can't chase them. What happens when word gets out that we won't chase and every thug out there starts running? We might as well just send out notices in the mail and use the honor system that people will turn themselves in.
Her: At least they won't get killed by the police.
Me: I wonder how you would feel if someone sideswiped this moped of your and just kept driving. Or if they stole your laptop or wrote you a bad check for something. You report this to the police and we refuse to take any action to actually arrest this person. After all, those things are just misdemeanors. We don't want to put cuffs on someone and have them get hurt.
My head had started hurting so I ended the conversation before I got too rude. We didn't even begin to get into why I thought it was still a good shooting even though the bad guy was unarmed. That probably would have made her brain explode.
16 bits of radio chatter:
They don't get it..I don't think they ever will.
If you chase,you could fall down and hurt yourself.
Hey Johnny, I'm interested in reading more about this case. Any idea if it's one of these?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Dorismond
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ousmane_Zongo
Some people are victims,others are not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg
Johnny Law,
As usual, you have created a post that is DEAD ON. I follow your blog regularly and I, too, am that hapless cop that engages these folks in conversation. I even went so far as to explain the entire legislative process to some A-hole who said the law I was arresting him under was bull-#&$*%.
Not my problem, I explained. Talk to the legislature...and on it went.
Take care,
Philosophical Cop
Actually I think it was the shooting of Timothy Thomas in Cinncinati.
In reference to anon being passive aggressive and posting those wiki links, I think officers were justified in the Diallo shooting based on the totality of circumstance.
I feel this because I followed the trial closely. I also think the shooting of Sean Bell was justified.
The shooting of Dorismond sounds shaky and the shooting of Zongo sounds bad. Unfortunately, I don't have all the info on those two.
In my case two homicide detectives took time out of their day to retrieve my property and bring it over to my home, which was very nice of them. One of them also gave me some good advice, to just put the theft behind me. I did that and was better off for it.
I want the police to chase down and catch the criminals, both for misdemeanors and felonies. I appreciate the effort, and so thank you for your service.
Talking to these people is an interesting pastime. No good can come of it, but it's fun anyway.
How is Kurt's post passive-aggresive? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Anyway, just because idiot hippies protest police brutality doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
It's tough to not be cynical when all the little corrupt practices start adding up. How many families of police officers get speeding tickets? Friend of police stickers, etc. And then toss in one of these tragic questionable cases.
Still curious has people are willing to give the benefit of the doubt?
i do not understand. it appears to be a moral issue and you do not address that, so what is your point?
is it more important to enforce a warrant then accidentally kill someone, unjustifiably?
the warrant in the end came to nothing. that is pointless.
there was a time when policemen were not armed and the citizens were.
we were better off then, then the now present time.
why is it backwards now?
was the man violent?
did he resist?
did he just run?
heaven forbid that you do anything because some non-thinking individual might pull a gun on you, though you were not violent.
same anonymous as above.
Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Anonymous (the one that posted twice in a row)
What you fail to realise is that the misdemeanour is not the justification for the shooting.
The misdemeanour justifies attempted arrest. This is the law of your country (and of mine).
The suspect then ran, which justified the pursuit - as Johnny has said, if the police were to just let them run, people could run riot with no comeback to breaking the law.
The suspect then started digging in his waistband. This is a stupid thing to do if you are being chased by police, especially if the police are armed (I'm from the UK, where the majority are not). This action is expected to result in the production of a gun.
At this point, the officer does not know that there is a gun, but the evidence suggests a high probability that there is.
Make the assumption for a moment, if you will, that there is a gun. By the time the officer knows this, the suspect would have chance to shoot. The officer cannot, therefore, afford to wait until this point, and has to act when the evidence is there.
Unfortunately, this will result in a number of false shots, but only when the suspect is stupid enough to act in this manner.
In my country (the UK), it is legally and morally acceptable to use adequate force (which can include killing if necessary) to defend yourself, as long as you *percieve* a threat to your safety to exist. This is for this exact reason, if you wait until you know the threat exists, it is generally too late.
Presumable because of the second amendment rights of a US citizen, this is the position in the States as well.
Was it justified? Yes, there was a percieved threat to life.
Did it need to happen? No
Could the officer have prevented it? Only by risking his or her own life.
Could the suspect have prevented it? Easily.
Was it murder? Of course not.
Follow the chain of events through from a logical standpoint, and you will see that (providing it happened as described, something we can not prove or disprove) the actions taken were correct.
(Apologies for such a long comment Johnny)
Another part of the argument from the "hippie protester" type in these kinds of events:
"Just shoot them in the arm, leg, (some non-lethal area), etc."
These people have no idea what it is like to wield a firearm in a life or death situation. If they had, they would know how difficult it is to merely shoot someone in a (smaller target) extremity.
In a life or death, you're going to aim for maximum effect and highest probability target which is the trunk... which can often lead to a fatal shot.
These folks dislike the police - until it's their ass getting kicked or their shit getting stolen.
Love reading your stuff Johnny. I have known and lived with. grew up with and worked with many honorable men in the profession. Could say good police work is in my blood and my families heritage.
According to DOJ statistics, the prison population has quadrupled since 1980, Violent crime and property crime have declined in that same time and police shootings are up. We all look back to the "good old days", but what really has changed, the crime or policing?
It is a direct result of the "war on" whatever policies and mandatory minimum sentencing. The crime rate goes down but the prison population quadruples. The obvious argument is because they are incarcerated, crime goes down, but it is not the honest factual answer. 90+% of those in, get out sooner rather than later and you can't tell me current prison or jail is anything more than an easy way for organized crime to recruit.
In truth, why crime has gone down is because of the economy climate, rising tides float all boats. It is economic pressure that creates more crime. The "War on" attitude will never affect crime levels like a good job. You'll see the stats swing the other way during the recession, I am sure.
Your column shows me how far down the ladder peace officers have fallen. Your language and attitude seem all too typical of the new militarized private prison industry; the mercenary types that seem to have oozed out of every crevice since the seventies. Reading the comments to your columns gives even more evidence of the depraved attitude of many (not all) of the fraternity. You have a knack for dehumanizing your alleged 'criminals'. I wish there was a way to weed your types out of the force.
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